Anther great nuanced conversation! Thank you both.
Meghan, I don't think I've ever expressed an appreciation for your sense of humor - which is brilliant and so often understated making it extra... air bnb collab made me chuckle.
It makes sense to me y'all are doing an event at a comedy club.
Man, pump Lionel directly into my veins. Seriously, every interview you two do together is some of my favorite listening of the year. Thank you, Meghan!
I see that some people are put off by a certain rigidity in Lionel Shriver, but I love it! I think it goes hand in hand with the ability to have strong convictions. Most people don't have the courage to have convictions of their own, never mind strong convictions! What they believe in is what everybody around them believes in.
Lionel Shriver is the Gore Vidal of podcast guests, so entertaining as well as smart. I listened to this twice snd yesterday revived my Audible subscription, albeit at the introductory .99 cent rate, to devour this book. A must listen and a must to look up Laura Miller's NY Times hostile review, and the vast majority of commenter who were spurred to read the book because of it. It's an excellent and super entertaining book. Would make a great film.
Two comments come to mind -the first is that many of my friends are adamant that there are more than two sexes (yes sexes, not genders) and that people can indeed change sex. It’s insane but I am no longer surprised by it because I have heard it so often.
The second is that I think it’s worth thinking about why it is that the tiny percentage of people who from a very young age insist that they are not the sex that they are, have always been males. To me it’s just a manifestation of how difficult it is to be a feminine boy, especially a very feminine boy. This is true across cultures. Masculine girls can have a hard time, but are not bullied in the same way. I think it is our culture’s inability to accept feminine boys that causes the extreme distress and feeling of being ‘wrong’ that these boys experience. If it is instead something innate, would we not see it equally in both boys and girls?
I don't have a statistic handy, but my understanding is that the majority of folks "changing" sex are women transitioning to men. I was surprised by that! But, from what I've seen, it has to do with sexual predatory behavior and having to deal with too much attention from men - not even a consideration for tom boys.
While I agree largely w/ Shriver's take on US immigration, I understand the economic contributions of immigrants and see these current ICE raids as, Shriver says "theater," grand standing for no good reason. Otherwise, criminal immigrants would be prioritized for extradition. Going after farmers and restaurant workers (who -outside of CA - don't make minimum wage) and contribute to their communities may be "illegal" because they are breaking immigration law isn't the point. Meghan is absolutely correct. It's cruelty.
On the flip side, I love how liberals simultaneously say we should be like European countries (not including the UK and France - like Finland, Switzerland, Sweeden etc) and don't realize they have very strict immigration policies.
Sidebar - the economic immigration phenomenon is something I've witnessed my whole 40+ year life... is there something Biden specifically did to let in a bunch of immigrants? I feel like I might be missing something the way Shriver calls him out.
Lionel would also be more persuasive if she ever spoke in a way that suggests she changes her mind of occasionally, doubts herself, or is actually undecided on anything. She has the same affect as Walter Kirn - always speaking with a repulsive level of smug certainty. Quite irritating!
Yeah, that’s why she’s an odd fit for this show… because as you say, she has to do her schtick, her “brand” thing (taking a sledgehammer to things that require a scalpel). No nuance.
Thank you for the discussion about the absurd "rules" in literary fiction! I am a fiction writer who started publishing fiction after 2012, and you know what that means. Initially, I was able to find small publishers, but now it's impossible. If you (Lionel Shriver) have issues with your editors about whom you can describe in your novels, you can imagine what it's like for small fish like me.
I’ve always enjoyed Lionel’s takes on the left. However, in the wake of the recent “vibe shift”, she comes across as unduly sanguine about Trumpism. We have a democratically-elected President threatening to revoke the citizenship of a celebrity who has the temerity to criticize him, and who threatens to cancel contracts for someone if he plans to contribute funds to candidates of another political party. The list goes on and on, and it’s something new almost every day. This stuff is so far beyond the normal bounds of democratic politics that it beggars belief.
Excellent conversation. Lionel's plain speaking is so welcome in an age of rampant dissembling and obfuscation.
I know you had limited time but I wish you could have pushed back on Lionel's description of the novel character as a hypocrite because he considers some immigrants to be freeloaders.
I get that the character is a "freeloader" because he would rather live off family inheritance than work.
But isn't there a major difference between freeloading at the expense of family and freeloading at the expense of the American taxpayer? I think I may be missing the hypocrisy here when the source of income is so different.
(Not to imply that any kind of freeloading is good - they are all negative but in the family case I have no reason to care what they do with their money.)
"sex is a choice" is a total rubix cube machination of the movement to resist the gender stereotypes that plagued people of previous generations. huge pendulum swing.
There are books/novels written by immigrants who are written from both points of view (of the immigrants and of the locals)--but, well, good luck trying to get the cultural gatekeepers interested! (immigrant writer speaking)
The discussion about why people/women/feminists were much more vocal in the UK than in the US is particularly interesting to me because I have my own theory about it. I think both Meghan and Lionel had good points, though I agree more with Meghan. But I agree with Lionel when she says: "Eventually, people like us win." I know that because I lived for 25 years in a Communist country where I was married to a dissident (and we won).
That's interesting that she lived in Belfast, I didn't know that. I'm from NI, and yeah safe to say American liberals' opinions on the Troubles are generally ridiculous.
Anther great nuanced conversation! Thank you both.
Meghan, I don't think I've ever expressed an appreciation for your sense of humor - which is brilliant and so often understated making it extra... air bnb collab made me chuckle.
It makes sense to me y'all are doing an event at a comedy club.
Man, pump Lionel directly into my veins. Seriously, every interview you two do together is some of my favorite listening of the year. Thank you, Meghan!
I see that some people are put off by a certain rigidity in Lionel Shriver, but I love it! I think it goes hand in hand with the ability to have strong convictions. Most people don't have the courage to have convictions of their own, never mind strong convictions! What they believe in is what everybody around them believes in.
Lionel Shriver is the Gore Vidal of podcast guests, so entertaining as well as smart. I listened to this twice snd yesterday revived my Audible subscription, albeit at the introductory .99 cent rate, to devour this book. A must listen and a must to look up Laura Miller's NY Times hostile review, and the vast majority of commenter who were spurred to read the book because of it. It's an excellent and super entertaining book. Would make a great film.
Two comments come to mind -the first is that many of my friends are adamant that there are more than two sexes (yes sexes, not genders) and that people can indeed change sex. It’s insane but I am no longer surprised by it because I have heard it so often.
The second is that I think it’s worth thinking about why it is that the tiny percentage of people who from a very young age insist that they are not the sex that they are, have always been males. To me it’s just a manifestation of how difficult it is to be a feminine boy, especially a very feminine boy. This is true across cultures. Masculine girls can have a hard time, but are not bullied in the same way. I think it is our culture’s inability to accept feminine boys that causes the extreme distress and feeling of being ‘wrong’ that these boys experience. If it is instead something innate, would we not see it equally in both boys and girls?
I don't have a statistic handy, but my understanding is that the majority of folks "changing" sex are women transitioning to men. I was surprised by that! But, from what I've seen, it has to do with sexual predatory behavior and having to deal with too much attention from men - not even a consideration for tom boys.
While I agree largely w/ Shriver's take on US immigration, I understand the economic contributions of immigrants and see these current ICE raids as, Shriver says "theater," grand standing for no good reason. Otherwise, criminal immigrants would be prioritized for extradition. Going after farmers and restaurant workers (who -outside of CA - don't make minimum wage) and contribute to their communities may be "illegal" because they are breaking immigration law isn't the point. Meghan is absolutely correct. It's cruelty.
On the flip side, I love how liberals simultaneously say we should be like European countries (not including the UK and France - like Finland, Switzerland, Sweeden etc) and don't realize they have very strict immigration policies.
Sidebar - the economic immigration phenomenon is something I've witnessed my whole 40+ year life... is there something Biden specifically did to let in a bunch of immigrants? I feel like I might be missing something the way Shriver calls him out.
I knew this interview would rub people the wrong way, but not me. I can’t get enough of Lionel Shriver.
Lionel would also be more persuasive if she ever spoke in a way that suggests she changes her mind of occasionally, doubts herself, or is actually undecided on anything. She has the same affect as Walter Kirn - always speaking with a repulsive level of smug certainty. Quite irritating!
Agree on both points. Lionel is hard to take but I think it works for her "brand". She says she is not "sentimental" - no kidding.
Yeah, that’s why she’s an odd fit for this show… because as you say, she has to do her schtick, her “brand” thing (taking a sledgehammer to things that require a scalpel). No nuance.
memory holed:
"the air at ground zero is safe to breathe"
"weapons of mass destruction"
most recently - "there is no epstein file"
Thank you for the discussion about the absurd "rules" in literary fiction! I am a fiction writer who started publishing fiction after 2012, and you know what that means. Initially, I was able to find small publishers, but now it's impossible. If you (Lionel Shriver) have issues with your editors about whom you can describe in your novels, you can imagine what it's like for small fish like me.
I’ve always enjoyed Lionel’s takes on the left. However, in the wake of the recent “vibe shift”, she comes across as unduly sanguine about Trumpism. We have a democratically-elected President threatening to revoke the citizenship of a celebrity who has the temerity to criticize him, and who threatens to cancel contracts for someone if he plans to contribute funds to candidates of another political party. The list goes on and on, and it’s something new almost every day. This stuff is so far beyond the normal bounds of democratic politics that it beggars belief.
How much of that is performance? How much does he actually follow through on?
I find it hard to sort out, these days.
Meghan,
Excellent conversation. Lionel's plain speaking is so welcome in an age of rampant dissembling and obfuscation.
I know you had limited time but I wish you could have pushed back on Lionel's description of the novel character as a hypocrite because he considers some immigrants to be freeloaders.
I get that the character is a "freeloader" because he would rather live off family inheritance than work.
But isn't there a major difference between freeloading at the expense of family and freeloading at the expense of the American taxpayer? I think I may be missing the hypocrisy here when the source of income is so different.
(Not to imply that any kind of freeloading is good - they are all negative but in the family case I have no reason to care what they do with their money.)
I haven't read the novel yet, so I don't know! I assume that one of the concerns of the novel is the definition of freeloading.
Good point - sorry for jumping the gun. It's entirely possible that Lionel has a character taking those exact words from my mouth.
Look forward to it and a recording of your September conversation.
"sex is a choice" is a total rubix cube machination of the movement to resist the gender stereotypes that plagued people of previous generations. huge pendulum swing.
There are books/novels written by immigrants who are written from both points of view (of the immigrants and of the locals)--but, well, good luck trying to get the cultural gatekeepers interested! (immigrant writer speaking)
The discussion about why people/women/feminists were much more vocal in the UK than in the US is particularly interesting to me because I have my own theory about it. I think both Meghan and Lionel had good points, though I agree more with Meghan. But I agree with Lionel when she says: "Eventually, people like us win." I know that because I lived for 25 years in a Communist country where I was married to a dissident (and we won).
That's interesting that she lived in Belfast, I didn't know that. I'm from NI, and yeah safe to say American liberals' opinions on the Troubles are generally ridiculous.