I’d love to see more nuance on the topic of non traditional relationships and sexual desire: Ethical non monogamy, women wanting multiple/casual partners (in addition to the evolutionary biology drivers), etc. Esther Perel author of Mating in Captivity would bring some great perspective. - First time commenter
I enjoyed this conversation. One minor point I wanted to address, because I’ve heard it a lot over the past decade from many folks, is the notion that women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers of relationships. I think that’s only half accurate…. Women are certainly the gatekeepers of sex. However, I don’t think that either sex is the gatekeeper to relationships. While it may seem like men are the gatekeepers to relationships from the perspective of a woman who is sleeping with a guy whom she hopes to establish a relationship with, one also has to consider that there are millions of men who would like to be in a relationship, but struggle to do so due to a lack of female interest. In contrast, what we don’t see is something similar as it relates to sex…. We don’t really see women continually seeking out sex from men and failing to get it.
I think Dr. Soh is right on target about the hormonal issues from endocrine disruptors (and I would subscription anti-depressant use) causing folks to be sexless AND happy about that.
Intuitively, I see it as a huge evolutionary problem (and eugenics agenda).
fwiw - I think more IRL time would help everyone. Folks have been reduced to a stero type because they allow themselves to become one online. Everyone has to take a stand on every platform, use their power to speak out etc... all principals I grew up with and believed in, but its mutated into this sort of programming from a very inauthentic place.
I think touching grass is good, but I don’t think it’s a panacea.
When I see that someone is radicalized by some culture war thing or whatever, my thought in general is that I want to deradicalize them. But if I’m thinking about it in terms of whether I would conceivably consent to let this person touch me, any red flag is just a no. That is to say, I’m actually grateful when I see a woman endorse something crazy because it means that I dodged the potential harm that could have happened if she’d made the turn later in life.
The panacea isn't touching grass. It's being away from dialogues that reduce conversations to two dimensions.
I 100% support listening to your intuition/red flags when it comes to anything approaching intimacy.
It just seems like when people were more often meeting in person than online (or spending more time IRL than online) the conversations and interests were broader and chemistry could develop without an intervening swipe.
What was so striking to me about Israel is how many attractive people of opposite sexes I saw together, interacting with each other casually in public spaces.
Really enjoyed this. I'd be interested in hearing from someone like Holly Randall or Noelle Perdue, who work in the porn industry. Neither of them are performers, but they interact with them a lot and know all the gossip.
I avoided this one until now but the guest quickly proved to be extremely well informed, articulate beyond expectation and very moderate in her takes. Never witnessed an academic inject research info to a taboo subject with such clarity and plain speak. I say this as a sociologist. It was still depressing if slightly hopeful at the end. As a parent of ear normal genX married children, my subscription is based on a conviction that Megan Daum is the most articulate observer of current social trends from their perspective. This episode was one of the best examples.
I'm relatively high on alternatives to actual sex, simply because the environment for sexual-let alone romantic-relationships is just so incredibly bleak.
They always have the same conversation about porn, but probably my single abiding impression of online pornography is "they look right at you". Eye contact is huge. They also given men compliments and say reinforcing things and smile and so on. I had simply not experienced that degree of humanizing treatment from anyone the first time I saw online pornography (at 21 or so). It was not until much later in life that sexually attractive women started treating me like a human being, which now I find incredibly creepy, because I have no theory of mind for it.
I think any form of sexual gratification that takes the human element out of it is progress. One area where I (ironically) agree with the feminists is that men think too much with their dicks. I think I'm much better off having not jumped into something based on what is fundamentally an addictive tendency to be attracted to women. I would much rather walk into an interaction sexually satiated and have a rational conversation, rather than going into that interaction ravenous and irrational.
Where I find myself separating from many others on this issue is that in addition to all the hypergamy talk and all the inherent evo psych dynamics, I think it's also relevant that an entire generation of women (particularly the youngish college educated Democrats) have gone insane. I don't know how you can have a relationship with a woman who won't agree that there is a category of human beings called women. I don't know how you can have a conversation with someone who thinks that it's okay to murder people for their opinions. I don't know how you can involve yourself with someone who thinks there is a (whitecisheterowhatever)-patriarchy if you are in fact a man. People always frame this about left vs right political dynamics, but this is not that. I'm a vegetarian atheist who hangs out in art galleries and does harm reduction for a living. I'm very left wing. I spend all my time around women. And I'm glad I've never had sex with any of them. My only source of optimism is that there are more out there.
Shesh. I used to worry about the impact of sexualized women in horror movies and the impact on young boys watching them... prolly a lot healthier than today's internet porn.
Not meeting in person has eliminated chemistry. I'm in a 20 year marriage, but I have young friends and singles my age actually going to dating coaches etc. and so many of them have all these criteria - mostly politically based. As someone who has a marriage and had one serious relationship before, I always tell them I was never going to date anyone who smoked cigarettes. Both my serious relationships were with men who smoked and if I had dismissed them for that reason, I would have missed out on some really great experiences and growth.
And to think, people used to be critical of meeting someone at a bar.
I’d love to see more nuance on the topic of non traditional relationships and sexual desire: Ethical non monogamy, women wanting multiple/casual partners (in addition to the evolutionary biology drivers), etc. Esther Perel author of Mating in Captivity would bring some great perspective. - First time commenter
I enjoyed this conversation. One minor point I wanted to address, because I’ve heard it a lot over the past decade from many folks, is the notion that women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers of relationships. I think that’s only half accurate…. Women are certainly the gatekeepers of sex. However, I don’t think that either sex is the gatekeeper to relationships. While it may seem like men are the gatekeepers to relationships from the perspective of a woman who is sleeping with a guy whom she hopes to establish a relationship with, one also has to consider that there are millions of men who would like to be in a relationship, but struggle to do so due to a lack of female interest. In contrast, what we don’t see is something similar as it relates to sex…. We don’t really see women continually seeking out sex from men and failing to get it.
I think Dr. Soh is right on target about the hormonal issues from endocrine disruptors (and I would subscription anti-depressant use) causing folks to be sexless AND happy about that.
Intuitively, I see it as a huge evolutionary problem (and eugenics agenda).
TBF - Men have always been a little clueless about how to talk to women.
According to women.
fwiw - I think more IRL time would help everyone. Folks have been reduced to a stero type because they allow themselves to become one online. Everyone has to take a stand on every platform, use their power to speak out etc... all principals I grew up with and believed in, but its mutated into this sort of programming from a very inauthentic place.
I think touching grass is good, but I don’t think it’s a panacea.
When I see that someone is radicalized by some culture war thing or whatever, my thought in general is that I want to deradicalize them. But if I’m thinking about it in terms of whether I would conceivably consent to let this person touch me, any red flag is just a no. That is to say, I’m actually grateful when I see a woman endorse something crazy because it means that I dodged the potential harm that could have happened if she’d made the turn later in life.
The panacea isn't touching grass. It's being away from dialogues that reduce conversations to two dimensions.
I 100% support listening to your intuition/red flags when it comes to anything approaching intimacy.
It just seems like when people were more often meeting in person than online (or spending more time IRL than online) the conversations and interests were broader and chemistry could develop without an intervening swipe.
What was so striking to me about Israel is how many attractive people of opposite sexes I saw together, interacting with each other casually in public spaces.
I believe that is depicted on an episode of "Mad Men."
I've heard it from men, too! Still do. lol
(Meghan - your recent collar and sweater combo is super sweet!)
Really enjoyed this. I'd be interested in hearing from someone like Holly Randall or Noelle Perdue, who work in the porn industry. Neither of them are performers, but they interact with them a lot and know all the gossip.
I avoided this one until now but the guest quickly proved to be extremely well informed, articulate beyond expectation and very moderate in her takes. Never witnessed an academic inject research info to a taboo subject with such clarity and plain speak. I say this as a sociologist. It was still depressing if slightly hopeful at the end. As a parent of ear normal genX married children, my subscription is based on a conviction that Megan Daum is the most articulate observer of current social trends from their perspective. This episode was one of the best examples.
My open question in this space is why is Israel so radically different?
I'm relatively high on alternatives to actual sex, simply because the environment for sexual-let alone romantic-relationships is just so incredibly bleak.
They always have the same conversation about porn, but probably my single abiding impression of online pornography is "they look right at you". Eye contact is huge. They also given men compliments and say reinforcing things and smile and so on. I had simply not experienced that degree of humanizing treatment from anyone the first time I saw online pornography (at 21 or so). It was not until much later in life that sexually attractive women started treating me like a human being, which now I find incredibly creepy, because I have no theory of mind for it.
I think any form of sexual gratification that takes the human element out of it is progress. One area where I (ironically) agree with the feminists is that men think too much with their dicks. I think I'm much better off having not jumped into something based on what is fundamentally an addictive tendency to be attracted to women. I would much rather walk into an interaction sexually satiated and have a rational conversation, rather than going into that interaction ravenous and irrational.
Where I find myself separating from many others on this issue is that in addition to all the hypergamy talk and all the inherent evo psych dynamics, I think it's also relevant that an entire generation of women (particularly the youngish college educated Democrats) have gone insane. I don't know how you can have a relationship with a woman who won't agree that there is a category of human beings called women. I don't know how you can have a conversation with someone who thinks that it's okay to murder people for their opinions. I don't know how you can involve yourself with someone who thinks there is a (whitecisheterowhatever)-patriarchy if you are in fact a man. People always frame this about left vs right political dynamics, but this is not that. I'm a vegetarian atheist who hangs out in art galleries and does harm reduction for a living. I'm very left wing. I spend all my time around women. And I'm glad I've never had sex with any of them. My only source of optimism is that there are more out there.
Great interview. Gotta read SEX-tinction.
I guess I'm old... dressing up and free food sounds awesome.
fwiw - Joe Dimaggio had a sex doll in Marilyn Monroe's likeness after they divorced. Way ahead of his time.
Shesh. I used to worry about the impact of sexualized women in horror movies and the impact on young boys watching them... prolly a lot healthier than today's internet porn.
"monkey branch" as verb just entered my lexicon.
Not meeting in person has eliminated chemistry. I'm in a 20 year marriage, but I have young friends and singles my age actually going to dating coaches etc. and so many of them have all these criteria - mostly politically based. As someone who has a marriage and had one serious relationship before, I always tell them I was never going to date anyone who smoked cigarettes. Both my serious relationships were with men who smoked and if I had dismissed them for that reason, I would have missed out on some really great experiences and growth.
And to think, people used to be critical of meeting someone at a bar.
Cigarettes and cannabis didn't stop sex in previous decades.